The Inclusive Networker
The Inclusive Networker is a podcast dedicated to helping small business owners, solopreneurs, and network marketers develop inclusive marketing and sales processes that help them authentically reach diverse audiences and subsequently grow large, diverse networks of customers, business partners, or team members.
The Inclusive Networker
Creating a Sense of Belonging in Teams with Jackye Clayton and Katee Van Horn
Do you ever feel like you're missing deeper connections in your relationships? Well, today our guests, Jackye Clayton and Katee Van Horn, experts in diversity, equity, and inclusion, shed light on the subtle art of networking and building deep, meaningful relationships in our transient world. They share valuable insights from their own unique lived experiences as they advocate for inclusive communities and systemic change in organizations.
This episode is a masterclass in understanding diversity and inclusion strategies within organizations. Here, we go beyond the surface, exploring how to create tangible opportunities for people to participate in inclusion initiatives. We delve into the tricky territory of HR policies and the tendency for them to backfire, highlighting the need for more options and opportunities for marginalized groups. Jackye and Katee also share their perspective on the challenge of providing equitable, not just equal, treatment to everyone, which is a thought-provoking discussion you won't want to miss.
Our conversation wraps up with a deep dive into the concept of Employee Net Promoter Score and its crucial role in measuring progress. We share practical tips on fostering a sense of belonging in teams, from taking action on survey results to creating space for introverts in meetings. This episode is a treasure trove of knowledge and tips to help you navigate the world of workplace diversity and inclusion. Tune in, and let the journey begin.
You can find Jackye and Katee on…
Website https://www.inclusiveafpodcast.com/
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/inclusiveafpodcast/
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Thank you for listening!
~Dr. Raymona
Hey, hey, hey and welcome, welcome.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Inclusive Networker podcast, where we make network marketers, small business owners and solopreneurs aware of blind spots that could be keeping their networks and businesses small. We give them tips and simple practical tools to make their businesses more inclusive and we teach our listeners how to build inclusive communities that support diverse customers, team members and business partners. So if you want to authentically build relationships with diverse communities of customers or business partners, you are in the right place. But be warned you will be challenged. But here's the thing you won't be judged. I'm your host, dr Ramona. I'm a speaker, coach, consultant, public health professor, wife, mom and a fierce challenger of broken systems that keep people from reaching their highest potential. I'm so excited to be with you on your journey to becoming an inclusive networker. Let's jump right in.
Speaker 1:Hey, hey, hey and welcome, welcome, welcome to this week's episode of the Inclusive Networker podcast. This is your host, dr Ramona, and who are we calling into conversation this week? Well, it is Jackie Clayton and Katie Van Horn. I am so excited to have them and let me tell you just a little bit about them. Jackie Clayton and Katie Van Horn are two diversity, equity and inclusion peeps who love both what they have in common and what makes them different. During the day, they use their superpowers to block bias and end systemic racism within companies and create equitable places to work. They are also BFFs who have tough conversations. I love that about our different lived experiences and they hold absolutely nothing back. So, jackie and Katie, I'm so excited to have you on the Inclusive Networker podcast. Welcome, welcome, welcome, hi. Happy to be here. So the first question that I ask every guest, as we are on the podcast and we're starting things out, is what is your lens?
Speaker 2:So, katie, let's start with you.
Speaker 1:Tell me what is your lens, what's your background? How do you see the world?
Speaker 3:So I am that middle of the US white, straight woman that grew up in a small town in Ohio, then moved to Arizona and have been in HR for 25 plus years, and the lens that I really look through is I don't have some of the lived experiences of my friends and of colleagues, but I want to give them a stage, excuse me, I want to give them a stage and I want to make sure that all voices are heard. So the lens I really look through is how can we provide platforms, how can we provide spaces where everyone is able to contribute in the best way that they can and really understanding that every single person makes us better, regardless of where they're from, what their background is, all of these things, and so the more exposure we can get to different and new, the better we'll be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so how did you kind of come to that place where you wanted to make sure that you amplify other's voices and make sure people have platforms?
Speaker 3:You know, I think for me, being in HR for a very long time, the comment I get from a lot of folks is you're so focused on being fair. And you know I grew up as a Catholic and of course you know that that is something that is talked about is, hey, jesus on the cross, that wasn't fair. And so that always has kind of resonated with me that hey, we're trying to build fairness, we're trying to build equitable places in the workplace. So how can we do that in the right way? And it's not just about the processes, the policies, the procedures, it's also about listening and hearing different voices.
Speaker 3:And so for me, a lot of it has just been sitting back and listening to folks that have a different experience and coming to that reckoning of what I experienced in the workplace isn't the same as my colleague or whomever that might be different than I am or have different experiences from me. And for me, that was where my eyes kind of were open to this place of okay, well, if it's not the same, in something as basic as this, hiring, firing, promotion, all of this different, you know, the different life cycle of an employee, where else is it different? And what is that experience, and once you see it, you can't unsee it. And so I think for me it was just this reckoning that I came through throughout the years as I watched and observed and listened and heard what the experiences of different people were.
Speaker 1:Okay, I love that. And so, jackie, tell us about your lens.
Speaker 2:I'm like middle class, middle age, middle America. I'm right in the middle, I am a proud Texan, I'm a mom of two adult children and I also I come from a black and I can hear my dogs in the background. Hopefully I'm a dog owner, but I come really from the hyphenate lens of people. I really love understanding people. I don't think I always do, and so I kind of come from the lens of curiosity, which has kind of led me to this place, of trying to understand what makes people them.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so that I feel the same way you know I was. I'll tell you a little bit about my lens too, since we're on the conversation, and I was raised. I always tell people there's in the deep South, at the corner of that black and blue right, my dad was a police officer, was an African American. You know, female understanding that there were differences in me and the experiences that other people had. On top of that, there were differences in my experience having a dad who was a police officer I was, you know, could walk up in the police station and say, hey, buzz me back.
Speaker 1:I had a really an experience that was phenomenal with police, and so, when you think about those experiences, I then was like you, katie, like I got to see that this isn't the same for everybody and there's something else that needs to be done here. I've got to open my eyes and my mind to what's happening with other people and how do I use that privilege that I've had to be able to help somebody else, and so I'm so excited to have you all on and to start to talk through this, and so you all have this podcast called Inclusive AF right. So, your friends, you realize that you had different experiences. You are absolute DEIB experts, right, and so, as you have developed this podcast, tell me a little bit more about the friendship, how you got to this podcast, and tell us a little bit more about it, so that we can tune into yours too.
Speaker 3:So we started the Inclusive AF podcast because Jackie and I have been friends for years and you know both in HR, you know in different you know places in the HR world, and we were having these conversations and, jackie, you know, during one of these conversations that was about the experience that she had versus what I had, versus what you know, what we were seeing in our different organizations. She said we need to start recording these because other people are going to want to hear these stories, these messages, and it really it's all, jackie. She made me do it.
Speaker 3:But you know, it was one of those things that we were in, you know, in the height of COVID-19 and the height of some very, very, very visible social justice issues and murders, and it was a. This is a different space than any of us have seen in HR ever in our careers or in any point in time, and that's what it was really born from.
Speaker 1:Any other thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:to add, Jackie I just think that I didn't realize, and part of that, what came out right at that time. It was we had George Floyd. That happened, and when people were talking about like oh well, you know, well, you should have listened to a police officer, or I didn't know that police officers were dangerous or that people looked at him, and I was like what, literally, what were you taught? Like it was so baffling to me that people would say, oh, this group of people doesn't have a problem with that, or that's not a problem in the South, or that's not a problem here. And I was like we really I have no idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:We were brought up in two different places where it's like, oh, I was taught to always do this and I was taught the exact opposite, and so there were things that I would just assume everybody knew, and so I wasn't sure. Before I would make these huge declarations, I was like Katie, so white people? I've got a question. I'm like so why do white people? Katie was like so you want me to talk on behalf of the whole white race?
Speaker 2:I was like yes, and women if you could just answer this for me, I could start going on the on the path and it would be like fascinating. And then it kind of grew from there, because my oldest is trans, non binary, and so it was like what's that experience like? And then kids go into college and then people moving and then it's Thanksgiving what are you eating and why? And so it kind of bloomed into all of these experiences and it wasn't the intention was really to have lessons learned, but I think, more than anything, we grew. Our friendship grew because we recognize so much of each other's strengths and weaknesses and we wish for people to see that you don't have to be the exact same to love somebody so deeply and be able to support and be there even though they're completely different and they live in a place that's way too hot, that's way far, with like 25 brothers and sisters, you know, and you're over there with your kids and all these things. Like we don't have to be the same. You know, we go a little bit deeper.
Speaker 3:So that one of the things I did mention. I'm the youngest of seven kids and I have I think we're at 19 visas and nephews at this point, so we did it as friends.
Speaker 2:Like she is not a lacking of human interaction at all.
Speaker 1:I totally understand, because my husband is the youngest of 10 children and you know we have a huge family. I love absolutely every one of them. It is so much fun, but, yes, you don't have to go anywhere to look for friends or acquaintances or people who are different or like you. Yeah, so that that's a perfect segue into this conversation about network marketing and how we're inclusive and how we're making sure that people who aren't like us can still thrive and get to the top, recognizing their differences, and and how do we make this space for them to be able to thrive as well?
Speaker 1:And so one thing that I absolutely hate is this saying that we have in network marketing is that we all have the same 24 hours, we all have the same compensation plan, we all have the same products. You know, the only difference is you and people say that you in a way that, okay, that's not a big deal, we've all got the same thing. There's this idea of equality, right, but the equity is not there, and so there's a huge issue with this. And so, as you all are thinking about these different lived experiences, let's talk about a little bit about your reaction to this this saying that we have as well, and why it can be problematic in building a business that when you're working with people that are diverse, when I hear that, there's a cringe factor because when I think of it, I got into this business through network marketing.
Speaker 2:Actually, I was out of the business, I was a stay at home mom and I redid my resume. I was selling Tupperware, I added Tupperware and then I got asked to recruit. They saw that I had technology and sales and that's how I was a. That's how this all started. But during that time, when I first started, I used to have to sell this mixer and it was a thing of salsa and I'm from Texas and so I would get to go to these parties. I would make the salsa and people I lived in South Florida while people in South Florida are from the Caribbean, not spicy, but I was from Texas spicy, and I was doing the recipe exactly to sell everybody. We're having a contest for these blenders. I burnt so many mouths in South Florida and then it's like oh, we have the same 24 hours. No, we don't, because I just said 25 people to the bathroom for the next 25 hours.
Speaker 2:They will not be participating, knowing that I'm not going to be able to sell these things. No, it's not as simple as that, because I don't live in a community where this is welcome. They don't want this season and they don't want these things. And so my experience is different and you know, it's like we have the same 24 hours, but in South Florida it's very transient and I was asking people to invite me to their home in a transient environment. People are not trusting, so it's not the same. You know network and the same opportunities. When you do that and and that's okay, you know, like I wish that the same was just tweaked a little bit, saying that we don't have the same but you have an opportunity to build your community, like that's exciting. But then I don't also don't want you to look at me and think that where I am happened in the last 24 hours or you could do something in the last 24 hours that's going to make you me.
Speaker 2:Or you know, I have someone who I mentor, who wants to be in the DEIB space and she looked at my work and she was like I want to do a podcast and I want to write an article and I want to go do speaking, and I was. She goes what do you recommend? And I said, well, first, why don't you try to get between seven and nine hours of sleep, like, just try for a full week and then we can get to that? And she was like there's no way I can. I was like then you can't do this work. You cannot be ready on a stage, ready to do these things and sharing your ideas and thoughts without clarity, which means you have to have sleep, which means something's going to have to not get done. And she was like I had no idea. I was like me, neither, I'm telling you, because I did do that at first and I definitely recommend. So it's like nobody has the same amount and you never know what's going to happen in that.
Speaker 3:So I think for me I am much more about like deep relationships versus a lot of relationships. So when I'm asked, hey, I'm going to this event and I don't like meeting people, or I don't like talking to a lot of people, or I am shy or whatever it might be, my response in what I always try to do is meet one or two people and sit down and actually have a conversation. And it's a joke amongst my friends they all laugh at me because I'm like, wait, who's that person? If I haven't sat and had a conversation with them, then I just don't remember. But it is because I have those deep conversations with folks that I think I've had the opportunity to really have deep, meaningful networks.
Speaker 3:And an example I'll give you just happened this morning. I have some folks that I am working with in Serbia and so I reached out to someone that I met years ago in Germany hey, who do you know? That's a recruiter in Serbia. I need to know what job openings there are, and those are things that when you have those deep and meaningful conversations, it's not about how many, it's about who. But I also going back to the original premise of I know that I have a different opportunity from a networking perspective for some of the things that I just mentioned.
Speaker 3:I have family members that are in so many different industries across a lot of different spaces that have introduced me to people I have through school, through some of these other things. I went to a Catholic high school in Phoenix and we joke around that it's the plaid mafia, because there are people that I still talk to from high school that have been business connections that have introduced me to the right people that have done these different things, and I think that's something that I am very privileged in that ability to have had those connections very early on in my life. And so I think it's for me again. It's about those deep connections and how you water the soil of those relationships to make sure that they are deep, and it's not just an ask every time, it's so much of it as a give. So I'll stop there and let you ask the other questions you have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I think that you all were going along the lines of what I was saying before about this idea of the recipes versus the framework, especially with the salsa example. So, when you think about systems, what have you all seen, with people just creating these cookie cutter systems and then they just failing in diverse communities Any examples of things that you've seen like that?
Speaker 2:Well, it makes me think of my own hometown in Waco. Waco, texas, people may or may not know, is also the home of Baylor University, which people might know is the largest, oldest Christian institution of learning. And so, coming in, and so we have people that are born and raised here, there is still like cross tracks there's the east side of Waco, there's this side of Waco, but there's one constant thread when it comes from the religious basis. And so if you want to put something out there, it was like you can't just throw it out there the same for everyone, because not everybody went to Baylor, right? Not everybody had those experiences, not everybody has that intersectionality, not everybody went on that side of the tracks or on this side of the tracks.
Speaker 2:And so if we say I think a lot of people that I hear will say, when it comes to diversity or inclusion, we'll say, well, everybody just do the right thing. If everyone would just do what they're supposed to do and just be nice, then we would be OK, without recognizing what that looks like within my community is a little different. I might have to dig a little further, and it reminds me someone in Omaha once said oh well, everybody's so nice here, they'll mow your grass if you're sick. And I said do you know what would happen in Texas if you showed up in my backyard shunned and body did.
Speaker 2:They were like, when I get shot, I was like you would get shot. I go, it wouldn't even have been me. My neighbor will shoot you and he's not even in the house, so you only have your own lens, and so it's just really important that before you just run out and that's the urge, especially when you're excited I want to share this with you. Like, look what I found, without knowing if it's something that I even need, I mean, what the biggest turnoff to me is when people say, oh, I've got this product that's going to help you do your job better. And my question is always what am I doing wrong in my job?
Speaker 1:Tell, me what.
Speaker 2:I'm doing wrong in my job, and they never have the answer to that. They just make these assumptions and it gets you in trouble. And so before I do that, I want to get to know you. I always lead with curiosity so that whatever I'm having I can frame for you or I can point you in the right direction, because otherwise I'm just wasting time. And none of us have time to waste.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's kind of I'm thinking like lens bias right. So, when we think about I'm nice, I'm doing things that I think are great for you. When we think about network marketing teams, I'm giving you the incentive that I would want to have, and I'm thinking this is supposed to work for you. You're supposed to like this. Why are you not happy that I gave you this golfing trip? Right, right, this jolt.
Speaker 3:Like make it make sense for me.
Speaker 1:I don't understand, and so that was what that kind of bought up for me when you were saying that is that we often that's why I ask people about their lens Because you don't realize that that is really controlling how you do everything, like everything, and then it's nice and but the other person is like, oh no, you're gonna get shot, right.
Speaker 3:Right danger yeah danger zone Right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, for me, you know, when you ask the question, I immediately went to like the workspace, and I think there's been so many programs that HR has rolled out that have backfired especially on folks from marginalized groups. And the one that kind of came to mind immediately was like mentorship and sponsorship, where if it is not done correctly, it can absolutely damage the relationships that people have. And I am very much a I want to have folks in the room, you know, kind of in the room where it happens if we wanna do a Hamilton quote here, you know I want people to be able to have experience and exposure to things. But just saying, oh, okay, well, dr Ramona, you're gonna now mentor Jane over here, and somehow I determined there's a connection for the two of you that this is gonna work. Well, it might not work and it might not be comfortable. And then who benefits?
Speaker 3:And then I also think mentor programs so many times it is oh, the more senior person thinks, oh, I'm gonna, you know, form this person and make them into a junior version of me, but there's no thought of what can I learn from that person as well? And so I think it's also kind of the you know reverse mentorship that you just never comes about, which I think is such an unfortunate piece For me. It's really about how can we? You know, to the example that you gave, I start laughing because I had a client. They were in the environmental space and they're like, oh, we're gonna do this incentive trip and it will be that the employee can go for 15 days onto this ship where they're going into the ocean and collecting plastic. And I was sitting there like that sounds like the worst, horrible, horrible thing you could ever put me through.
Speaker 3:I was like, absolutely not and so I was like well, let's maybe give them some options of what they would want to do.
Speaker 3:Yes, we can keep it in the same, you know, frame of helping the environment, but maybe not on a boat, stuck on a boat for 15 days. So I think it's again back to kind of what Jackie said you know, listening and inquiring into what would be of interest for folks, what are they interested in learning and growing into, and all of these things. And from a mentorship and sponsorship space, you know, I think we also, we a lot of times default to people that are like us or people that we think are like us when we choose those folks and pushing our boundaries and saying actually, no, I want the person that doesn't want the same career path as me, that I can connect to the right people, or whatever it might be. And so I think there's just some things that we do in the HR space that we could do better and not force things, you know, not force that, you know, square a peg into a round hole because it just doesn't work.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So how do you help people when they say, well, this is harder, right, I can't. If I'm not doing the same thing for everybody, or I'm not just giving everybody the equal treatment, then it's difficult. And when we think about network marketing, one of the big things that you have to do is duplicate, right, you have to duplicate yourself, and so how do you help people to navigate that if they're leaders of a team or of a company, when they want to do things that are equitable versus just equal, but they don't know how to do that and they think that it's gonna be a lot harder.
Speaker 2:I like taking them to the power of I don't know, it's probably the most powerful sentence you could ever use.
Speaker 2:When I started going out, networking in person and going to a lot of events, I online had this persona of being like such an extrovert, even though I was like completely terrified going into these environments. And I realized at first I was trying to be really cool in all these places, like I wanted everybody to think like I was the life of the party, but then I realized but I knew I wasn't. So then I went in and I started saying like I don't know anybody here and I really wanna make some friends. And then, as soon as I said that they would be like oh, I'll be your friend, like instantly, and so, instead of talking about going jumping over it, it's like I wanna try to build these relationships and so it would be so different to say I want to share this in this place, at this location, in this neighborhood, but I don't know anybody here.
Speaker 2:And people like the opportunity to be the hero. So many times, especially in sales, it's like I'm gonna make your life better, like I'm trying to be the hero or I'm trying to make some product the hero instead of making the other person the hero and so taking them there to say you have the opportunity to be my hero. And then just asking, putting yourself out there and being more vulnerable. And some of that is saying we went to this restaurant, they went through the specials and I was like which one are you gonna have the contest? Which one is the contest internally here? And he was like, oh, it's the swordfish. I was like I could tell I'll have the swordfish. And I was like you could have let me with that and saved a lot of time, like we're having a contest on the swordfish, just so you know. And so then he's like I'm gonna start doing that all day.
Speaker 2:Because when you tell people that people like to help people, give people an opportunity to help be your hero instead of trying to be everything to other people, I think is how a good place to get there until you feel more confident. And then, once you get there, then you go into the room and look at the people that you don't know and say, hey, come with me. What? Why are you here? What would interest you? I know somebody who can do that. And then another thing is that as a leader, we had a. I was in an organization for women in technology and every board I've ever served. We have a no one stands alone policy, so it was always and that includes yourself you shouldn't be by yourself in a corner, always look to have a partner somewhere in the room, and keeping that mentality, I think, is really helpful.
Speaker 1:And so, as we think about nobody's alone, allowing other people to be the hero, instead of you trying to know everything when you're there with an employee or for us, it will be a team member, and they're different from you You're trying to figure out exactly what would incentivize them, how to translate that into practice, what are some practical ways that people can use this and really be able to? Now I'm listening. Okay, I'm aware that I need to do this. I'm listening to that person and now I have 200 team members that I need to do this. So, yes, help, help, make it practical for them and tell us how do we really do that In?
Speaker 3:practice. So I think you know, on my end it goes back to a couple different things, the first one being, yes, if you have them in the room, they're engaged, they're excited, keeping in mind that they may have been burned before and in similar circumstances, and always Not having that in the back of your mind, but just being aware of that, because I think that's one of the things that you know, some of these programs, some of these things, because they have been very cookie-cutter, it has excluded. Or we say, oh, we want to include everyone, but that doesn't really mean you, or that doesn't really mean if you act this way or whatever it might be. So being aware of who those folks are, that Might not have the same experience or might have been burned in the past by a similar experience. And then I think it is again listening what, what do they want? And and they might say, I don't know, because they might not be aware of what their options are. So just having those conversations with them to say you know what are the things that you need, what would be helpful, what would be of interest and I am very much a person that thinks you need to have one-on-ones with your employee every other week and you know every week if you can. If you have 200 people, obviously that is a little bit more difficult. But figure out ways that you can have touch points with them on a very regular basis and then, once a quarter, have those development conversations and have the conversations about where do they want to go next. And Don't make assumptions and know that that might change every single quarter when you talk to them, but I think it is. You know, there are some templates, there's some things that you can use.
Speaker 3:But also realize that you're sitting with a human across the desk from you, across, you know, in the next chair from you, whatever it might be and the way that they react, the things that they say you need to kind of read. I'm I'm reading this book again right now. It's called the Culture Map and they talk about you know in Asian countries, that you have to read the air, what are the words that people aren't saying. You know reading between the lines, reading the air to, to understand what are they trying to tell you, even if they're not using the words, and and understanding that if people have not been exposed to certain things or they aren't aware of certain things, just talking to them and getting, well, what interests you? Okay, oh, if you're interested in this, how could I connect you? Who do I know, or that type of thing, to give you some exposure to whatever it is and, I think, also being that safe place for people.
Speaker 3:That's one that I have found. I get so much information and I I I have a thing that I do when I'm working with companies that I will walk around, and I did this at the last company that I was in House with and everyone would joke around like, what are you doing, your HR? You shouldn't be walking around. What it you know who's in trouble, who are you gonna yell at today? And until they got to know that I was just and it's you know I would start the conversation what's going on, how you doing? You know what's new and exciting in your world and those conversations you learn so much about what's really happening to be able to help people and connect dots that you Maybe wouldn't have.
Speaker 1:So I know I just gave you like 20 things, but that's no, no, I love it and that that listening, and I think that that leads into the. The next piece that I was gonna ask you all About is this idea of belonging right and so how, how do we really help to foster that environment of Belonging or that sense of belonging in our teens? And so some practical Steps or different things that we can do to foster that environment.
Speaker 2:Well, I think taking, like what Katie's saying, even one more step is making sure you're measuring those things. So what was the impact? So you look at the impact of those initiatives and I think it's fair to put out surveys to see, to make sure we're gonna have these various things. Or even breaking it down In the middle, like if it's in a meeting setting of getting people to partner up, I think is good to get people to share. So maybe it's not 200. Maybe it's 100, right, getting them to partner up, doing it, you know, doing surveys once a quarter is helpful, because sometimes you don't even change in the environment and saying, oh Look, it looks like we have a lot of people in this group. This is what we're missing. And then making people aware that you know we want to have, make sure that we have all of these voices to the table, but you have to always and let people know this is what we're doing, it's on a cadence and we're gonna continue to share.
Speaker 2:I was at a DEI be diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging conference and they didn't have any gluten-free bagels in. This. Woman almost lost it, like you don't even believe in it.
Speaker 2:I mean literally way out of control, and it's really important that you bring these people like I was like. This is why diversity is important. Nobody who was gluten-free sat on the decision committee. So, yeah, give people opportunities to step up and tell people what you're doing, because, especially in a crowd of 200, you don't know that there's someone who is a famous gluten-free Cookie Baker, because it's never become relevant.
Speaker 2:Right to say, this is what we're working on and we're trying something new of opening up to committees because some people don't want to join the big. You're gonna be part of the belonging initiative, but if you're saying we're looking for a way to make sure Everyone feels included and a API month, you know people might say we'd like somebody to be on On committees, to have fostered for this month. Give people short, tangible ways to participate, because you'll get more insight, the more people feel comfortable, and so I think that's a good way of doing it. But you you have to measure and observe, observe and make sure that you're noting. Like Katie said, measuring the air, seeing what's there.
Speaker 3:Yeah you know, I think observing what Jackie just said is.
Speaker 3:It's so critical because I'll share a story, and Jackie's heard the story from me before but I was in a room with the top 250 leaders of a company and One of the folks that was in the room sent me a text and said so I'm the only black person in this room, and and and it did not occur to me. You know, I'm in this room, I'm a DEI person and it didn't even occur to me that I'm going. Oh my god, of the top 250 people in this company, only one of them is black, only one of them is a black female, and and it was like such a stark reminder of you have to keep your eyes open to who is not in the room, who is not, who doesn't have a voice, and and why aren't they there? Why? Why don't they have a voice? Why aren't they a part of this conversation? And that's something that that we have to always be just checking.
Speaker 3:And Again, this is, you know, my own personal bias that it didn't occur to me because I am part of the majority that was sitting in that room, and so stopping and looking around and saying who's not here, who should be here. I think it's just such a critical piece as well when you talk about that belonging piece. So that's another part of it.
Speaker 1:So who's not here in in body and in thought, right because?
Speaker 2:a lot of times.
Speaker 1:We have a lot of different people that are in the room, but the thought is all the same, all right, and so I think that's yeah. And so, as you were talking, you were talking about measuring this and making sure. What are some simple measures. What types of things do you are typically put on a Survey that you're giving out to people. That helps you to understand the impact of the belonging.
Speaker 2:I asked straight out you feel like you belong here? Like sentences that say I feel like I belong at this organization, I feel that my opinions are valued at this place. If I feel like and this is the big, big, big one cause people will say, yeah, I feel like I belong. And then you ask I feel if I have a dissenting thought, I can say it safely, and then people will be like, oh no, I can't.
Speaker 2:So then you have to get down to because it's like, yeah, I feel like I belong, but I should say it tells you I belong when things are going well or if things are happy, as long as I agree with everyone, and we're so used to that being what belonging means that we forget, as the IB professionals know, that then you don't feel like you belong and we're not making you feel comfortable. And so part of belonging we have to remember is helping people feel safe. So, depending on the organization, the time frames and different things, it's how I feel safe. And then, outside of that, usually I work in twos where it's like I need you to pay attention to things like who's turning their cameras on, who's not Like, who's sharing themselves, because people are being more relaxed and being more vulnerable, feel safer than those that don't, and so is there a pattern amongst the people that are not sharing.
Speaker 2:It seems like everyone under 25, none of them turn their cameras on. Why Is it us? Is it too many meetings? And then don't be afraid after coming back when you do these surveys, let people know the results of the surveys and, even if it hurts your feelings, like go to your best friend, talk to your parents and get over it, but share those things and work past, because we need to make those changes. And that's the part that always stinks. Sometimes we give out surveys and I'm like I'm sure my whole team is gonna feel like they belong. Nope, you're like.
Speaker 2:I bet you don't start going. I bet you it was Katie. Katie never agrees.
Speaker 3:It's funny that you say that, because that was actually gonna be so. My favorite question is the ENPS, so Net Promoter Score, but the employee Net Promoter Score would you recommend this as a great place to work, which I think is pretty much on every single engagement survey across every company in the world, and that one is such a tell for me, and I think all of us have probably been in an environment that you're like no, I don't want my sister to work here, no, I don't want my knees or my you know whatever to work here, and so I think that is such a great question. All the questions Jackie mentioned are spot on. And then I think, taking it one step further than what Jackie said, yes, sharing back the results, but, more importantly, take action on what you heard, because I think and you have to be extremely explicit of I heard what you said on the survey. This is the action we're taking.
Speaker 3:We heard what and I have said that to so many leaders you can't just say, hey, we're gonna make this new program. You have to tie it back to. You gave us this feedback and we are taking this action because of that feedback. So people know I didn't just fill out a survey and it went into the ether. People looked at it and now they're doing something about it, because I'm sure all of us have been in a situation where we have heard from an employee well, why?
Speaker 1:would I fill that out?
Speaker 3:They don't do anything with it anyhow. And so if you don't take action and let people know why you're taking the action because of what you heard then they're not gonna feel at the serve anymore and you're not gonna get that feedback ever again. So for me, it's asking the right question, but the more important piece is what are you doing with that result and what action are you taking to let them know? You heard them and you're taking action on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I love, love, love these tips because they're so practical. When you think about looking at patterns, right, simple things like everybody's on Zoom, but everybody's not having the same experience right, everybody's in the same room, but they're not having the same experience, and so if we're looking at the patterns who's not turned on their camera, who's speaking up, who's moving to the top in your team, who's coming to the incentive parties or whatever it is that you're having then that's a huge sign right. And then, doing those things that you talked about with, let's bring in different people, that it may be something short, that they're coming in to talk about, and we're getting those opinions and then we're displaying the results and we're taking action. I think that's a really simple way that people can get started with this and really help to foster that belonging in their teams, and so any other things that you all want to give the people on the inclusive networker, about inclusion or networking in teams, any anything like that.
Speaker 3:One other thing I will add, and this is I am at a place in my career I think all three of us are in a place in our career that we are at a more senior level, and so for me, it's who are you helping?
Speaker 3:That's coming up behind you and making sure that it's not the person that looks like me, making sure that I'm bringing up as many folks as I can behind me that are different than I am, that have different ideas than I am, and that includes hiring people on my team that are much smarter than I will ever be. It includes bringing in people that haven't been heard from before to present to the senior leadership team, because I want them to have that exposure, I want them to be seen and obviously prep them, make sure they're safe in presenting whatever it is. But just thought that exposure, those things that maybe those rooms that they haven't been in, all of the things that we know to do and we would have wanted to have happen for us in our career we have to turn around and help the folks behind us come forward too.
Speaker 2:Love it. I think something with that, especially in big meetings. I feel like sometimes I learned this the hard way because a lot of this we look at activities and they're all extroverted activities without realizing there are some people that need time to get that feedback. Like literally. I remember we were at a meeting and we were asking questions. Give me an examples. Everybody already answered the question and it was like two weeks later and they were like I just want to answer the question, like I want my opinion on record. No, right, it took them two weeks to get to a no, but they were fine with the no.
Speaker 2:I understand, when you have these meetings, not everyone at organizations follow like a Robert Tewelgev order. Give people to speak at the beginning. Is there anything anybody wants to talk about last meeting? Because those people might have had a week to think and ponder any questions about what we talked about last week. Let's take five minutes to network who was here next week. Partner up with somebody who wasn't here next week so that people don't feel like they might have missed anything that happened before or if now they feel safe enough or they thought about it, that could be helpful.
Speaker 2:And also do not take non-participation as a slant. Recognize that sometimes, like I just spilled coffee and I have to take my shirt off, I have to go change clothes and the FedEx guy is here and all of these things are going on. Don't take it personal, but just keep going and again make those observations and change. If you're not sure what to do next time, do it completely opposite than you did at this time and see what happens and just keep going, keep growing in those spaces and see what comes out.
Speaker 1:Love it, love it. So tell me, what is your next big project? What is the next thing that you're doing? How can the inclusive network audience plug into it? What are we doing?
Speaker 3:Well, we'll, we'll start with the podcast. So the podcast we have, you know, new episodes pretty much every week. We have amazing guests like yourself on to have just great you know great conversations about what's happening in the world of diversity, equity and inclusion. And, you know, we, we kind of think about our audience as, yes, there's HR folks that are listening, but it's also great for leaders just to get tips and get understanding of of what's happening in the world. And so, you know, the inclusive podcast. And then I think the the other piece for me is Send me questions, send, you know, send me connections. All of that's the stuff that I love. So, not necessarily a project that I'm working on, I just like to be connected to folks and and connect them to the right folks. So, you know, find me on LinkedIn, find me, you know, katie Van Horn, with two E's. That's mine. What you got, jack, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm Jackie with the Y E. We're the only two. We're the only Jackie and Katie that spells our name like that.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:If you have questions for me, send them to Katie.
Speaker 2:Katie will let me know if I need the questions, but really it's meant to be conference season, so there's a lot of opportunities in speaking at some of the training pieces Katie and I are going to be looking at taking us on the road. So be there. If you do listen, make sure that you you know, leave a review about those types of things, and I would like to know, like, what people are looking for in the DEI B space, what kind of topics and things that we can have, because we have a lot of friends. We've like almost three years in doing this. Did you know that, katie?
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness oh my Lord, have mercy, we might need to take a day off.
Speaker 1:Never. I love it. Well, thank you all so much. It has been absolutely a pleasure. A pleasure, so much fun, and I want to thank you all my audience, for listening to this episode of the Inclusive Networker podcast. Thank you again, again to my fabulous guests, Jackie and Katie. You will find their information in the show notes and we will see you on the next episode of the Inclusive Networker. Bye, Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Inclusive Networker. You can find out all the information for our fabulous guests today in the show notes, but don't forget to subscribe to the Inclusive Networker podcast and to look out for a new episode each week on YouTube and wherever you enjoy your podcast. This is your host, Dr Ramona, and, as always, remember I see you and I'm cheering you on and I dare you to defy limits. See you on the next episode of the Inclusive Networker.