The Inclusive Networker
The Inclusive Networker is a podcast dedicated to helping small business owners, solopreneurs, and network marketers develop inclusive marketing and sales processes that help them authentically reach diverse audiences and subsequently grow large, diverse networks of customers, business partners, or team members.
The Inclusive Networker
Cultivating Racial Equity and Inclusion in Coaching with Annie Gichuru
Ever been in a room where everyone looked like you, but you still felt out of place? This week, I sat down with racial equity coach Annie Gichuru who candidly shared her experiences as a black migrant woman in Australia and the challenges she encountered navigating the space. She draws from her personal journey to craft transformational sessions teaching racial equity to online entrepreneurs, shedding light on the covert racism that persists even in the most unlikely spaces.
We also delved into the thick of DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) and the unique hurdles people of color face in the online business world. Annie's insights help debunk common misconceptions about DEI and highlights how even our best intentions can unconsciously bolster harmful systems.
Finally, we waded into the delicate territory of language and how it can be weaponized to perpetuate systemic oppression. In our discussion, Annie dissected the contexts and misuses of terms like 'woke', 'racism', 'apartheid', 'white feminism', and 'critical race theory'. In her bid to foster understanding, Annie shared her groundbreaking project, the Racial Awareness Glossary, and her plans for an inclusive language course. Tune in for this enlightening exchange as we confront these critical issues head-on.
You can find Annie on…
Website https://anniegichuru.com/
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/annie.gichuru/
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Thank you for listening!
~Dr. Raymona
Hey, hey, hey and welcome, welcome. Welcome to the Inclusive Networker podcast, where we make network marketers, small business owners and solopreneurs aware of blind spots that could be keeping their networks and businesses small. We give them tips and simple practical tools to make their businesses more inclusive and we teach our listeners how to build inclusive communities that support diverse customers, team members and business partners. So if you want to authentically build relationships with diverse communities of customers or business partners, you are in the right place. But be warned you will be challenged. But here's the thing you won't be judged. I'm your host, dr Ramona. I'm a speaker, coach, consultant, public health professor, wife, mom and a fierce challenger of broken systems that keep people from reaching their highest potential. I'm so excited to be with you on your journey to becoming an inclusive networker. Let's jump right in. Hey, hey, hey and welcome, welcome, welcome to this week's episode of the Inclusive Networker podcast. This is your host, dr Ramona, and who am I calling into conversation this week? Well, it is Annie Gachuru, and I am going to tell you a little bit about her. I am so excited to have Annie.
Speaker 1:Annie Gachuru is a leading racial equity coach and consultant for online entrepreneurs. During the past three years, she has helped many, many prominent online business leaders build intentionally inclusive businesses, the most notable of which is her partnership with the beautiful U coaching Academy, where she supports trainees and emerging coaches as a DEI trainer. She is deeply passionate about representation through a racial justice lens and combines her experience as an internationally certified life coach, her love of storytelling and her extensive career as a human resource specialist to deliver represented. It is a transformational online program which has been described as a must for all business owners who are ready to build a racially diverse, inclusive and equitable business. Always grace, gentle, spirit and passion for a racially equitable world is setting her apart in the coaching and personal development industry as a compassionate educator with an incredible space holding ability. Annie has called Australia. She is all the way from Australia. She has called that home for more than 20 years, having relocated from Kenya as an international student. Annie, welcome to the Inclusive Networker Podcast. I am so excited to have you today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for the beautiful intro. I'm excited to be here and have this conversation.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so we're just going to jump right in. You know, the first question that I always ask people who are a part of the Inclusive Networker Podcast is what is your lens? So tell me, what is your lens, what is your background? How did you get to where you are now?
Speaker 2:All right. Well, my lens is one that is a black migrant woman, originally from Kenya, as you mentioned in the intro, and have been calling Australia home for over 20 years. My lens is really very much from having grown up in a colonialized country so Kenya was a British colony, and so our relationship to whiteness has been one that has really been stepped in white supremacy. Despite the fact that Kenya is a country that is 90-plus percent black people, we have still felt the effects of white supremacy, exclusion, oppression.
Speaker 2:And coming to Australia, I often say and I came here as an international student and have chosen to call this place home now I didn't realize I was black until I came to Australia because of just how black I felt, because they want many other black people that I was around.
Speaker 2:So it was like the first awakening and it's not because I didn't know I was black, I know I am black, but it's because of being in spaces that were predominantly white that I did feel my blackness in such a big, big way. And so the lens with which I teach is this work or racial equity is calling in rather than calling out. I have found it to have a deeper, lasting impact and because our landscape here in Australia is very, very different to the landscape in the US. Whilst racism is everywhere in the world and the impact of white supremacy, it is dealt with differently. The experiences that perhaps African Americans or black Americans face in the US is very, very different for us here in Australia, and so, bearing that in mind, as an educator and a spaceholder when it comes to teaching this work and doing it from that calling in lens rather than the urgency or the kind that you ought to know better here, that ought to know better, honestly doesn't quite work, because every time something happens it's a little bit of a shock to the system.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I love that concept. I talk about that all the time calling people in versus calling them out and that's why I say that in the introduction of the podcast. Who are we calling in to conversation today? I think that that's so, you know. It's just so necessary to think about how do we call people in versus calling them out. Now, sometimes people need to be called out, but most of the time, I think that that approach and we have very similar approaches is how do we educate people, how do we bring them into conversation, so that we're not putting up that wall immediately when we start to talk to them, especially about the topic of race and ethnicity. So I really love that approach.
Speaker 1:Yes, so when you talked about some of the differences in Australia because I know that a lot of our network marketing listeners and those that have teams some of them have even teams in Australia so you talked about the differences in race and the way that things happen with people that are different in Australia versus in the US, and so can you explain some of those other differences? I know that you said that our approach has to be different. It has to be a calling in versus a calling out. What are the other differences that you've noticed as far as how black people are treated or people of color in Australia versus the US?
Speaker 2:I think an overall majority. There's a feeling of safety. There's a reason why some of us have chosen to go all this home for over 20 years. There's a feeling of safety. There's a feeling that when we see law enforcement, police officers, there isn't fear that we experience If you get stopped by the cops. It's nothing like, oh my goodness, I need to keep my hands on the steering wheel and I need to make sure that I don't make any sudden. It is not like that at all for a huge, huge, vast majority of us.
Speaker 2:I think where the difference really stems is from the fact that it is not in your face kind of exclusion. It's not in your face. It is very much dialed down and it'll take you a minute. It'll take you a minute to realize, hey, hang on. You spoke to me in a way that it wasn't just because of that's how you do it. I think you spoke to me that way because it's a race issue, because I'm black, you know it's very covert. You will not know until after a little while where you go like hang on, hang on, hang on.
Speaker 2:Something doesn't seem right. For example, walking into a liquor store to go and buy some wine, or but you just have a feeling when you walk in it feels different. You can't quite put your finger on it, but it feels different. It was revealed in one of the shops that they have a sign written that if somebody of African descent walks in, that they should always be two people at the counter at all times and that they should really keep an eye on somebody who looks like that who walks in. It's because they've had people who look like that, who have shoplifted or something. But it's things like that that you feel and you can't quite articulate. But you know there's a difference, that you know the energy has shifted when you've walked in, so it's things like that, whereas in the States it is a little bit more overt.
Speaker 2:You know that people are treating you a certain way and there's a history to back it up as well, and so Australia is a little bit different in that lens and plus, it's a very multicultural country. The everywhere you go you will find people from. You know a lot of various backgrounds, but there's also our First Nations people. You know Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, and we have a history, a history that we haven't quite reckoned with. That is still something that is being dealt with to this day.
Speaker 2:So there are different aspects of race that we deal with. I don't think we necessarily deal with them in the best way. I think it's kind of like sweeping things under the carpet. It's very taboo. Matters to do with the race are still very, very taboo. You go there and everybody's like whoa, this is the elephant in the room. And, oh my gosh, how are we going to talk about this? Whereas in the United States it is not an elephant in the room. It is there, it exists and and, and you know, a vast majority know about it and talk about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think I think it's both actually, because, yes, I think a lot of what people see of the US is the very overt things that are happening, but there's also, you know, what Tiffany John and Michael Barron called the subtle X of exclusion right, and I think that's what you're explaining, and we definitely have that in the US as well where there are things that are happening that aren't so outright and just in your face.
Speaker 1:There's these microaggressions, these things that happen to people every day Is they're walking down the street and people would never admit to them, but they are happening and weighing down on people of color here in the US as well. So I think we can definitely identify with that. That too, yeah, and so, as you've thought about this and you've thought about your experiences and things that are happening in Australia, you came to this place where you felt that you needed to help coaches and you needed to help them to understand DEI, to do their work better. So tell me a little bit about what you do for coaches as it relates to DEI, and what are some of the big mistakes or issues that you've seen with DEI and coaching.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I support online business owners such as coaches, course creators, creatives, consultants, to build businesses that are racially equitable so they can be intentionally inclusive. You know, this is something that you actually have to be intentional about, and it was simply seeing the gap, seeing the gap as a black migrant woman in the online space in the coaching industry, and just seeing hardly any representation, you know, and also seeing the lack of understanding. The things that we face as people of color are unique to us the barriers, the challenges, the setbacks. They are unique to us and our identity, and when you have coaches who do not have that understanding, it becomes really difficult for them to support you. They're wondering why aren't you showing up and being visible and talking about you, know your services and how you can be of assistance? Well, there are many things that we are dealing with on a personal level or a mental level, when it comes to just putting yourself out there. You don't just put yourself out there, especially when you do not see yourself represented, or perhaps the picture of somebody like you that people have is not one that has been embraced, and so that has been an area of really educating coaches to bring them up to speed with matters of race and how they get in the way of us people of color showing up and doing what it is that we've been called to do.
Speaker 2:And perhaps one of the biggest misconceptions and mistakes that I see in the online space when it comes to doing this work is the assumptions that a lot of coaches make. But I'm inclusive. I am not a racist person, so the issue of being racist is so extreme. You know it's associated with those who are extremists and it's not the little slights that happen on a daily basis. You know they'll be like Annie. I have, I support people of color. I have black friends. You know I I'm already inclusive and I think once you start thinking in that way, it kind of puts you in the box of well, I don't need to listen to what you know Dr Ramona has to say or what Annie has to say, because I already know that I'm one of the good ones and whilst, yes, you're a good person, you volunteer, you have friends from all sorts of backgrounds, it doesn't mean that you are exempt from the systems that we have, all you know, subscribed to at some point.
Speaker 2:And how do you begin to undo that? Because I often hold affinity groups for some of the coaches that I support, who want to have spaces where black and indigenous and people of color can come together and just talk about the issues that they're facing. A lot of times they say we can't bring this to the host or to the main person who's the coach, because they just don't get me. Annie, I'm a black woman, she's not gonna understand this. Yes, I'm part of our program and yes, I am, you know, getting results in this and the other, but they're just certain aspects of our identity that I just don't even bother bringing up or talking about, because she will just not get it. And so that is where the mistake or the misconception lies, when you think that, oh, I'm already having, you know, all these people from diverse backgrounds, so I am an inclusive person, I don't even need to do this work. No, you absolutely need to be doing this work.
Speaker 1:That is so true. I love that because I talk to people all the time about this and really talk about. That's why I asked the question about the lens. All right, what is your lens? Where did you get some of the things that you're thinking, your beliefs?
Speaker 1:And often, especially in network marketing, we duplicate systems that are often, from, you know, white, middle class women, and we try to continue those systems and then when a person doesn't succeed, we say, oh, they had so much potential, I wonder what happened with them. And we don't look at our own systems and say, what is it that we did that? Or how is the system actually setting them up to fail? Right, it's set up for one person or one type of person, but we need to broaden these things to frameworks so that people are not trying to just duplicate something that doesn't work in their own unique community and in their unique culture. So I really, really love that. And so any other things I just want to stay on this for a minute because this is so good. So other things that you have seen coaches doing in your experience that you want to bring to the inclusive network or community that have been just kind of counter to good DER practice.
Speaker 2:Yes, this notion as well, of well, I'm not a black person, I can't speak to this, I really can't speak to this. I'm white and I'm still muted and listening. So I mean, and that just undoes the work in such a deep way. When somebody asks you so where do you stand on matters to do with race inclusion, you say I can't speak to that, this is not my space. So I guess it's also a misunderstanding.
Speaker 2:There is that narrative where we are saying let us lead this conversation, let those who are trained, who are qualified, who hold that identity to educate and really hold that space. But I think it's been taken out of context and a lot of white folks going like oh, don't ask me anything about race, I don't know, I don't know. And that just undoes the work because you're not, you're not sharing your opinion, you're not saying look, I don't stand for this kind of nonsense. This is the kind of leader I am. I'm still in the process of doing the work.
Speaker 2:I know there's a lot I still need to undo, but I am doing the work and these are my beliefs, these are my values, this is who I serve, these are the people who I'm ready to work with Once you can kind of speak to that in that way and not be afraid to go there when it comes to matters to do with race and inclusion, then we are making a little bit of progress. But to say no, no, no, this is just for a certain kind of group of people to talk about and to address, and we're just gonna sit there and fold our arms and wait to be educated. We have failed and the system is going to continue to thrive in the ways that it has because you have chosen to sit back and let other people tell you what to do.
Speaker 1:Yes, teach the people, Annie, I love it, I love it. And it also is absolutely and actually more harmful to not say anything, because it hurts the black and brown people that are watching you and seeing you get to. Just, you know, sit back and let them. You see people struggling, you see the things that are happening and you won't take a stand and it's just like, oh, you know, let those things happen to you. I get to stay back in my comfort zone, and it is actually more harmful to your team when you don't speak up and I love the language that you use and you're like I don't have it all together, but I'm standing against this, and I think that that's what people want to hear. Is that? No, we don't expect you to be a DEI expert, but we expect you to just take a stand. Right, you got to be on one side or the other. You can't just not say anything and sit in your place of comfort and just be okay, right, and I think, also the tool of fear.
Speaker 2:Fear has been used as a scapegoat. I can't do this, you know, I'm not educated enough. I'm too afraid. What if I say the wrong thing? What if I cause harm? What if I add more to the issue? And I think this often comes about when you're not doing the work. When you're not doing the work, of course you'll be afraid because you're not sure what to say or what I might say that might cause harm or, you know, add on to the issues that this whole work has. When you're educating yourself, when you're doing the work, the fear reduces because you're doing something about it. But when you stand in the sidelines and you kind of watching, you're like oh, that person got called out, I don't want to be called out, I don't want to do this work. It just adds on to the fear and you never quite leave the starting line because fear just gets in the way.
Speaker 1:Oh, I got to write that down. You are fearful when you are not doing the work. Yes, that is so good, okay. Yes, let's talk about. Then. You have this racial awareness glossary and that's going to help everybody to start to do the work. This is a step that we can take to do the work. So tell me about the racial awareness glossary and then I know that there are 20 things in the racial awareness glossary, so give us your top five and then we're going to make the people download it to get the rest of them.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about the racial awareness glossary and how did you get there? And then we do the top five.
Speaker 2:I love this. This is a brand new resource that I have created and it's really stemmed from my curiosity of wanting to know the historical context of the term. We often hear terms being used, especially in the political scene, and you're like that doesn't sound right, I don't know if they know what they're talking about, and you ask them to explain and they're like, well, this is what it means. You're like, no, no, no, no, that is not a truth, that is a misconception. What you're saying is not true, and that's what led me to wanting to create something that would educate my clients and my students. And it has been received really, really well because, for example, one of the words that has brought up a lot of dialogue and conversation is a word woke. You know what does it mean? Because in the current times that we are living in, it's just taken a whole different meaning. And so, going back to the historical context, how did it come about? When was it first used, in what way was it used and what was it about? And when you understand the historical context and you understand how you should be using that word or not using that word. And then there's other terms like you know, what does racism really really mean. Where did it come from? Yes, we know it's a social construct, but where did it come from? When was it first used? How did it? What were the things that led to people using that to separate us? You know things like apartheid. What does apartheid mean? Because it's only been used in the context of South Africa. What does that mean? How did that come about? How did that language, that terminology, how did it come about? Words like white feminism you know we hear often people saying oh, you know, I'm a feminist, I'm a feminist, this and the other, but when we dig deeper, it really is white feminism, because you're living an entire group of women or feminists out of this through your beliefs and your systems. So it is. You know.
Speaker 2:Critical race theory as well is another word, a term that was coined. You know, going back to who coined this term, what was the context in doing that? What is the true meaning, how has it been misused, what is the best way to use it? And I think, because these words are just, it's bite-sized and it's really broken down succinctly. You know historical context, you know misuse, current use, how to use it properly, who coined it. It just helps you really appreciate and it can take you down a you know a path of I want to dig deeper, I want to just take some time and learn this a little bit more.
Speaker 2:And it's more than just a Google search.
Speaker 2:This wasn't somewhere, something where I sat and I was like, okay, google, tell me this, because, again, the people who share the stuff that goes on Google can be biased.
Speaker 2:So it requires taking a lot of time looking at different resources and finding out from you know, people who identify in that way, not just white folks who've put, you know, some scholarly articles together, but it's really coming from the people who have been impacted and affected, and so it's been an absolute joy putting that glossary together and it has been received incredibly well, because I think there's something about language.
Speaker 2:There's something about language that people just want to know. They want to know, they want to understand, and once you begin to have that understanding, you begin to look at this work a little bit differently, because when you understand the true meaning of the word woke, you no longer feel opposed to it, you no longer feel like, oh, this is divisive, they're trying to separate us. Once you understand the true, original definition of it, you're like, okay, okay, I want to dip my toe into this work because I want to have a deeper understanding in order to make me a better person and have a better influence around the people who I impact, be it in my business or in my life.
Speaker 1:This has got me so excited. I'm going to download this immediately after this podcast, and you all have to do this too. So she just gave us five. We had woke racism, apartheid, white feminism, critical race theory. There are 15 more, so you have got to go and download this racial awareness glossary. I'm excited about it. I know that this is really going to help the people at the inclusive network or podcast, and so thank you for that, andy. So tell us. What else can we expect from you? What are you doing now? How do we plug in to anything that you're doing? I know that everybody's going to want to keep in touch with you, so tell us what you're doing.
Speaker 2:I'm currently working on a pop up podcast where I will be teaching. It's an intensive and inclusive language intensive that I will be teaching in the form of a pop up podcast. I often find my clients and students find it hard just to stay at your desk and study, and so having a pop up podcast where they can listen to you know couple of bite sized episodes they can learn as they are multitasking, they can learn as they're doing their daily walk and so on. So that's something that I am working on right now and by the time I think this goes to air, it will be available the inclusive language intensive in the form of a pop up podcast and it will be on all streaming platforms.
Speaker 1:Awesome. And so where do we find you? How do we find you on social media or wherever that you are the most?
Speaker 2:I spend most of my time on Instagram. My handle is any dot gishiru and if you go to those links, you will find everything you need the glossary, you will find the inclusive language intensive pop up podcast and you'll find me sharing my free teachings on building a racially equitable business.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, thank you so much, annie, for being on the inclusive network of podcast and thank you all so much for listening to this episode of the inclusive networker. Thank you again to my fabulous, fabulous guests, annie Gishiru. You will find her information in the show notes and we will see you on the next episode of the inclusive networker. Bye, thank you so much for listening to this episode of the inclusive networker. You can find out all the information for our fabulous guests today in the show notes, but don't forget to subscribe to the inclusive networker podcast and to look out for a new episode each week on YouTube and wherever you enjoy your podcast. This is your host, dr Ramona, and, as always, remember I see you and I'm cheering you on and I dare you to defy limits. See you on the next episode of the inclusive networker.